Independent Spirituality

from our old forum:

Pieter I.Spirit.:

What we mean with independent spirituality:

Everything concerning spiritual life, without accepting dogmas from organised religion, sects, so called holy books, gurus, saints, boddhisattva’s, etc…

Because all this is no genuine insight, but second hand information, belief, formed by others and accepted by us via our conditioning.

Still these resources can contain interesting information, which we are willing to investigate with an open mind.

It’s about being open to see all dimensions of life itself, instead of letting the eye flaps of belief restrict you.

Pieter I.Spirit.

Jodi:

Hallo Pieter,

I found your website by typing “independent spirituality” into Google.com. You certainly don’t have to convince me of the value of independent spirituality! My reason for writing this post is because I am interested in your answers to those “Essential life questions”, especially these two questions:

Is perception without the image of thought possible?

and

Is it possible to live in the moment?

I know from experience that the answer to both questions is yes. But I would enjoy reading your thoughts on these topics, and unfortunately only the Dutch answers seem to be available. Perhaps someday you will complete the list of questions and answers in English.

Very nice website, Pieter!

Jodi
U.S.A.

Pieter I.Spirit.:

Hi Jodi,

Welcome here at the forum.

So to answer your questions, I did these two answers in English.
Feel free to dig further.

Is perception without the image of thought possible?

When we observe something, then an immediate action of thought and senses follows with a judgement. Our brain is so much used to do this, that we don’t know anymore what it is like to just observe. It is impossible though to see reality, if conditioning comes between yourself and the observed. You meet someone who you saw ten years ago for the last time. That person treated you badly at that time. In the meantime the person got the insight of that bad treatment. But you can’t see this, because you automatically get the former idea in your mind.
Perception without this image is only possible if you see very clearly through the operation of the mind and are standing in life brightly. It’s the difference between living in the present or being lived by the past.

Is it possible to live in the moment?

You can’t possibly do an effort to live in the present. Mental effort on itself is already an endeavour that moves away itself from the present. There is no lack of meditation systems, but it is not because you paralysed your mind by mantra’s or artificial circumstances, that you are living in the now. Only when thought is not the ruler of your existence, but is at your life’s service only when it is functionally needed, then there is the mental silence and then you are living in the present. Circumstances and emotions can be hectic or serene as well, because the flame of consciousness is not touched by the storms of life.

Pieter  I.Spirit.

Jodi:

Hi Pieter,

Thanks very much! I enjoyed reading your two answers and appreciate that you took the time to do the translations.

Perhaps your phrase “standing in life brightly” (from your answer to the first question) is similar to what I think of as “wordless perception”. I suppose another way to describe this might be that it’s the state a person’s brain is in when the person looks at an object but has not yet labeled it.

And your statement, “the flame of consciousness is not touched by the storms of life” is perhaps the same as what I have thought of as an “underlying tranquility”.

I don’t know what originally prompted you to explore the concepts you present on your website. For me, what started it all was a sudden, unexpected “experience” of this kind of perception, intense and unforgettable, back in 1988. At the time, I didn’t even know such experiences were possible.

I was not particularly religious at the time this happened, but I had a Christian background and soon I discovered the Christian mystics. And later I learned from other religions : Islam (Sufi’s), Zen Buddhism, and Hinduism (Advaita). But although I learned from many religions, I stayed relatively independent, and currently I don’t consider myself as any religion. I appreciate the “independent spirituality” on this website.

I would be interested in hearing a little bit about your background. But perhaps you feel that’s too personal to put on a website or forum, or even for a private message?

If you’re busy, a short reply is fine (or none at all if you prefer!). Thank you again, Pieter, for the translations, and for all the work you’ve done on your excellent website.

Jodi

Pieter I.Spirit.:

Some people have one special “spiritual” experience in their life, others none or others every day and night. That depends on a lot of things and these experiences can be totally different. What is called spiritual for one person can be trivial for another. The question could be if experiences from others are of any value for someone to find their “way” in spirituality. Because the question of a way itself is dubious. It implies that one evolves from self thought situation A to self thought situation B. Which is imagination, preventing people from living with reality.
Besides that, my background could distract people from more important things discussed here and could easily become a breeding ground for conditioning about what is said.

Pieter I.Spirit.

Jodi:

Hallo Pieter,

Thank you for your reply.

1. Spiritual experiences

You are very right. I know that what I experienced is of no direct use to anyone else. It is only of indirect use through the fact that the “experience” originally brought me to spirituality, and so consequently there is now a possibility of sharing with others the peace and freedom that resulted.

2. Journeying or questing in spirituality

Yes. A path, a way, a goal ; these are the opposite of what’s needed. Or perhaps needed is not even the right word! There’s nothing to be pursued because we are all that one thing, the unknown. And whether we do know that we are it, or whether we don’t know, both modes of existence are the one thing acting. It was when I gave up trying to get somewhere, when I accepted that there was no way and nothing to be done, and accepted things as they are, that peace stayed, and it continues to be available.

I hope my choice of words to describe what I mean is somewhat clear. These things are never easy to put into words. Perhaps since I was raised in a religion, I have some shadings of that in my writing. And of course I speak no Dutch (other than “Hallo” and now as I write this, “Voorbeeld”), since typically so few Americans learn other languages. So it may be more of an effort for the two of us to communicate. But I hope you can see behind the words and know that I understood what you wrote in the above post, and I do agree.

3. Personal stories

Regarding your background, I do understand your point:

I’ve been experimenting a little with writing about spirituality. And one comment I got from two of the four people who have read my material so far is this: put in your qualifications right at the beginning, tell the reader why he or she would want to read what you have to say about this subject.

I have not done what the two people suggested. The reason is exactly what you stated above.

People reading would evaluate the biographical details: Are they what I expected? Are they too strange for my taste? Are they not exceptional enough? What is this person’s education? And then, of course, people would not be reading with an open mind, and the possibility of the text being helpful would diminish greatly.

So I certainly would not want any discussion of your background to get in the way of the work you’re doing here on your website! I apologize.

Americans tend to be an informal bunch. Not at all reserved. We talk easily, share easily and quickly, and get personal – maybe too personal – easily. I have heard that Europeans are not necessarily like this! When I asked about your background it was out of an interest in a possible eventual friendship, because I have found that friendship with people similar to oneself can be a helpful thing, and sometimes a beautiful thing, in one’s life.

Thank you for the time you have spent writing to me! In my conversations with others, online or in person, if appropriate I will mention your website.

Jodi